Joe Keohane | The Power Of Connecting With People
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Ever been afraid of saying the wrong thing? Or being rejected? Listen to this episode and learn what research has shown about this, AND get tips on how to get more comfortable with social interaction.
Key Takeaways From This Episode
Tips to disconnect yourself from your phone
How talking to strangers is related to traveling
Perceptions people have about talking to strangers
Strategies to start a conversation with a stranger
What does ''regulating inputs'' mean? Why should you avoid it?
The 80/20 rule of listening
Disclaimer: All of the information and views shared on the Live Greatly podcast are purely the opinions of the authors, and they are not medical advice or treatment recommendations. The contents of this podcast are intended for informational and educational purposes only. Always seek the guidance of your physician or qualified health professional for any recommendations specific to you or for any questions regarding your specific health, your sleep patterns, changes to diet and exercise, or any medical conditions.
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
About Joe Keohane
Joe Keohane is a veteran journalist who has held high-level editing positions at Medium, Esquire, Entrepreneur, and Hemispheres. His writing—on everything from politics, to travel, to social science, business, and technology—has appeared in New York magazine, The Boston Globe, The New Yorker, Wired, Boston magazine, The New Republic, and several textbooks. An avid parallel parker and occasional working musician, he also won a prestigious Screenwriters Colony fellowship in 2017 for a comedy television pilot that remains, sadly, unproduced.
Connect with Joe
Website: www.joekeohane.net
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Kristel Bauer, the Founder of Live Greatly, is on a mission to help people awaken to their ultimate potential. She is a wellness expert, Integrative Medicine Fellow, Keynote Speaker, Physician Assistant, & Reiki Master with the goal of empowering others to live their best lives!
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To learn more about Live Greatly's transformative online courses for personal development and self-improvement, to discuss collaborations and partnerships, or to book Kristel as a speaker or consultant, click here.
Episode Transcript
Joe (Teaser)
Keep the microphone in front of them and just let them talk for a little bit and help them. Articulate what they're trying to get at. Because again, people don't ask you a lot about this stuff. Your family might not ask you about this stuff. So your friends might not ask you. No one really sits down and takes like a really active interest in you.
Kristel (Guest Intro)
You're looking to build connection and learn how to better communicate. This episode is going to bring you a ton of value. I'm really excited to share the conversation with Joe Keohane. Joe is the author of the Power of strangers, the benefits of connection in a suspicious world. I got introduced to Joe , through Jason Pfeiffer, who's the Editor in chief of Entrepreneur magazine.
And Joe used to work at entrepreneur along with other magazines as well. And he's done a lot of research into social connection, why we feel uncomfortable in certain situations, why we get uncomfortable to talk to strangers and what we can do to really build deeper connection and to get out of our comfort zone, to start to break free from the problems of loneliness and disconnection.
I'm super pumped. Let's go ahead and welcome Joe to the show
Joe:
Yeah. Thank you for having me. I'm just like to be on.
Kristel:
For sure. Okay. So I want to hear about the book that you are writing, how you got this idea and just, you could give a little bit of background about yourself.
Um, so the listener knows who they are listening to today.
Joe:
Sure. So,I've been a journalist for about 20 years, as a writer and an editor. And I had this epiphany a few years ago probably 2017, 2018, where, I realized that I had stopped talking to strangers. I wasn't necessarily one of those people who are like habitually talking to strangers before.
I mean, obviously I have to do it for my job because I'm always talking to people, but like out in the wild, I would do it a little bit. And I always thought it kind of fun, like in a bar and a coffee shop or in a line or something. But I realized one day I was just walking around my neighborhood and I was like, I don't, I just don't talk to people anymore.
And I started to wonder why. And I started to think about like, what that meant that I wasn't having these interactions that I had like basically cut an entire category of human interaction out of my life without even choosing to do it. It just kind of went away. So, I started to think about why I would have stopped.
And what I realized early on was that two things had happened. One, I had a small child, which Kristel, you know, like all consuming that can be. And what that does to your social life, which is it eradicates it. So I had a kid and I had a demanding job as a journalist. And so I was tired all the time.
I was distracted and I was stressed out. So the prospect of like, just chatting with people, it was a question of time I didn't have, and also a question of just not having energy to do it because when you're just kind of chatting with people, you have to pay attention, right? Like it's kind of a demanding interaction, even though it can be sort of simple.
And the other thing I realized that it was just technology. It was just my phone. So, you know, over the last few years, and I'm kind of in a. In a maybe advantageous position to understand this stuff because like email and, and phones and stuff didn't happen until I was in my teens and twenties. So I remember what it was like before. And I remember what it's like. Yeah. I know what it's like now.
Um, but I realized that with my phone, like number one, it had at least a lot of interactions that I would have had otherwise, like I didn't have to call the pizza place anymore. I just did it on my phone. I never had to ask for directions. I just did it on my phone.
And then when I was in a public place, where strangers were around. I would just wouldn't talk to them cause I was just looking at my stupid phone. So here I am in the, you know, the greatest city in America. I'm showing my bios here. I know you live in Chicago. So I also, I also liked Chicago. I don't want to alienate anybody.
Um, and I'm surrounded by an immense impossible multitude of people, every type of person, every language, every religion, so many backgrounds, so many nationalities. And I'm sitting here like a dummy looking at my phone and a bar surrounded by other people who are looking at their phones like dummy. So, um, I realized that that's kind of why I checked out.
And so I started making an effort to talk to people again, and I had like an extraordinary conversation with a cab driver one night. That was amazing. And, um, it just started, you know, like when I was at a bar, I wouldn't look at my phone, like in the rare occasion that I could get into a bar, I would talk to the bartender.
I would talk to who was whoever's next to me. And that's where the idea for the book came from. I started to wonder, like, you know, why is it, why can't it be rare for us to talk to strangers? Um, what keeps us from doing it? You know, and I wanted to look into everything that kept us from doing it.
And that could be anything from like, you live in a busy place to you know, racial prejudice, what happens when we do it and why it felt good to me to do it again. Why I got like an, almost like physiological buzz from it. And then also look into like how people had learned to live with strangers over the course of human history.
So that's basically where it came from. But yeah, that was a that’s how it started.
Kristel:
So you're in, you're in Brooklyn, New York. So that listener knows where you're that awesome city that you're talking about.
Joe:
That's right. Yep.
Kristel:
So, yeah, there's tons of people there. And you're so right that I noticed this too.
Everybody's looking at their phones. And it's funny because I'll have those moments where I'm just like in the zone and feeling good. Maybe I just had a good workout or, and I'm looking around, I'm like, oh my gosh, everyone's staring at their phones. Like what is going on? It's like, it's the weirdest thing when you kind of wake up and you look around and you're like, huh, this is interesting.
So how do people get out of that habit because it's a habit, our phones are always attached to us and so in one way or another, whether in our purse or pocket, and then you hear the ding, you hear the notification and if you're working, it's like you're on all the time. People can access you.
How do you separate from like staring at the phone to actually taking that step and building connection or talking to someone at the grocery store or, you know, wherever it is that you are maybe on a walk or who knows?
Joe:
Yeah. I think it, it takes a lot of mindfulness and discipline for one thing. I'm not like a total Luddite, I would say I'm wary of technology, but I also love like, as my friends are going to test, I am a chronic texter. I love, I really enjoy it because it's just a great way especially if you have a kid.
Did you just stay in touch with everybody and just kind of keep this chatter going all day long. And I liked my friends, a great deal, and they're funny and smart people and I like their texts.
Kristel:
So, so do you, um, do you do those animated gifts? Is that what you call them? The gifts, like little videos.
Joe:
Yeah. We'll do some of those, but I'll do like the draw, whatever the drawing function is on an iPhone.
Kristel:
I never done that.
Joe:
Yeah. I actually got a couple of those off today. But yeah, but I, so I liked that stuff. Like I, I sorta drive my wife crazy cause I do, I'm just texting with my friends a lot. Um, so I don't hate the phone.
But it definitely can throw you into like an addictive cycle. I mean, it's like, uh, you know the phrase is a chemical dependency loop. Um, what the phone offers is like something novel, like a bell rings, a new piece of content comes in a new piece of information, something, and every time you see something new that the brain gives you a little shot a dope shot a dopamine.
And so you just get hooked on dopamine, even though it's just like, but we get off our phones. A lot of times it's just empty calories. It's just kind of junk food. It's like Twitter, which I'll look at for an hour and then just feel sort of sick, you know? Like, so being disciplined about like, where does it, what does, uh, what does a healthy way to use it?
What does a productive way to use it? But also like, don't just use it because you're sitting there and it's easier. There's definitely like a phenomena with humans where we just go for it. We tend towards the most easy, most efficient. It's like the principle of least effort is the name of the concept.
Um, so if you're in like a public place and you're just looking at your phone because it's easier than making eye contact with the bartender, and it's easier than talking to someone next to you, then that's an unhealthy use of that phone. Like that phone is keeping you from socializing and because we're hyper social animals, we need social contact.
We really benefit from social contact. So for me, you know, I just tried to get really say unplug as I always have it with me, cause I'm also a journalist. So I get a lot of emails and stuff. I would try to go for walks and I would try not to use my phone unless I knew something was coming. And I would give myself a half an hour or an hour.
I'd just go for like a long walk at night or something and just notice things. Yeah. Breathe and look at people and think about people, wonder about people and like occasionally talks to somebody. That was a big one. And then going into a coffee shop or a bar, unless I was working in a coffee shop, which I haven't done in a year and a half now,I had to like force myself to be like, I'm going to talk to the bartender.
I'm going to get a sense of who this person is like to realize the opportunity that you get when you talk to somebody. And you know, what I came to realize is I sought out these opportunities more and more. Is that talking to people you don't know is like a form of travel. For me, when I had a little kid, like I wasn't traveling, I wasn't, you know, I was barely leaving the house.
It was like a stand in for traveling because it's like a form of exploration in a way. And it's not to say you're like exploiting the person that you're talking to, but it really is like, you can follow your curiosity. You have to be kind of alert. You have to pay attention. And if you do and you do it well, like you're really benefit from it.
You'll learn a new perspective. You'll learn about someone who has better ideas about things than you do or what life is like for them? You know, I always say it's like entering another universe. And I know there was a line in like Jewish scripture that I found that like every person is a world.
I think Norman Mailer had a line that every person has a culture. It really is when you talk to someone and you do it well, you're basically exploring another culture, even if they're relatively similar to you, their experiences are going to be different enough that it's going to be interesting and having the opportunity to see the world through their eyes is like hugely educational and, and kind of, it could be pointed and it could be profound. I mean, it was a real game changer for me. And it's sort of mind blowing when you're walking around and you come to realize that the millions of people around you everybody is worth talking to everybody is like, has a rich life and, you know, experiences that you could benefit from hearing about.
Uh, and they like it too. I mean, if you're curious about people and you're not being creepy about it, you're not like grilling them or interrogating them, which you have to learn not to do not the creepy part, but the interrogating part, um, then they'll, they'll, they're kind of appreciative, like people like that you're interested in them, people like that you're curious about them and they'd like to have the chance to talk about who they are and what their lives have been like. So they tend to be into it too. And so as a result, it ends up being kind of easier than you would expect it to be.
Kristel:
So that is really, really interesting. And it's approaching these conversations with a great sense of curiosity.
And I love that you said it's like you're traveling. You know, each person you meet is going to have unique takes, unique background, unique culture. And I am super excited about this conversation right now, because where things are starting to open up again after the pandemic and the past year and a half has been very isolating.
I think a lot of people have lost some of those communication skills and I've talked with some friends who have mentioned, like, there's this sense of like, how do I do this again? Or, you know, those social situations where you haven't been in those environments for a while, it's like remembering the art of connection and the art of communicating.
So I would love to hear your thoughts and your insights into that art. And how do you go about communicating in a way where you are really trying to have a fulfilling conversation instead of just the like, oh, you know, hi, how's it going? Or like the quick little conversations. I think I, what I'm looking for is more of that more meaningful connection.
Joe:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's definitely really common and I hear that a lot that people are worried that they're going to be rusty and they're worried that they're going to be sort of incompetent when they get back out into the world. I was worried about that myself, because I remember, it was like July last year before I even saw anybody else. And I had some friends over on my roof at my birthday and there were like four of us. And I remember it being like, feeling like I was hyper, feeling like I was bad at this. And I've known these people for years, you know, we're really excited, but also just kinda jittery, you know, like you see this in mice? Actually, interestingly enough, there are a lot of experiments on mice where they keep them in solitude for a long time. And then they release them back into the general population and they're like jittery and like agitated. I sort of felt like one of those mice. Um, so yeah, so people it's very common, Um, for people to feel that way at this point, especially after, you know, being trapped inside and also just enduring like a serious trauma I'm in New York got torn to pieces by this thing we were here the whole time, that's normal. Also, what's interesting is that in a lot of the studies, you know, so there there's like a growing group of psychologists who were studying what happens when we talk to strangers.
And part of the work is figuring out why we don't do it. Like why, what keeps people from doing it? And there are a lot of answers to that question and I go pretty deep into it in the book. But one thing that comes a lot in a lot of this research is just that it's the people worry that they're gonna be bad at in terms of talking to strangers.
So they, they worry that they're not going to know. They're not going to know how to start it. They're not going to know how to finish it. They're not going to have anything interesting to say the people that they speak to are going to think they're boring or weird, or there's something wrong with them.
Like there are all these different impediments to having these sorts of sorts of interactions. Um, So this is universal, right? Like what people feel right now is just an extension of how people feel kind of all the time when it specifically comes to talking to strangers. Um, the good news is like, you're not alone.
It's not, you know, you being socially maladapt. It is just like the way people are because we are out of practice. So the good news that people found in a lot of these studies,is that as much easier than people expected it to be, you know, a lot of these studies measured people's expectations.
How long did they think these interactions would go for? Or what percentage of people they approached would talk to them? Would these people like them and everybody's predictions, everyone's predictions for these conversations were, were dismal right there. No, one's gonna want to talk to me if they do, it's gonna last for five seconds and they're going to be annoyed.
And the research found that no one and this is hundreds of participants in these studies. No one was like there was not a single, you know, in work by, there's a guy named Nicholas Epley who with a psychologist named Juliana Schroeder, actually Epley’s in Chicago is at the university of Chicago.
They did a series of really famous experiments, but they found that there's no meaningful chance of rejection. So the people who did this were just not rejected. The conversations that they initiated lasted, I think twice, as long as they expected them to. And every one of them and he put through these people under the fire too, like he made them have these conversations on buses on the CTA, and they did it again in London, which is like a famously chilly place for this sort of these sorts of shenanigans.
And like, it worked really well in London on the tube, you know, no one talks to anyone on the tube in London. But yeah, so, you know, they found again and again, and other, other psychologists found this too. Like the chances of rejection are very, very slim. So don't worry about that so much. There's more research on how people perceive us when we meet strangers.
There's a perception that we have that after we have a conversation with someone that we don't think they really liked us that much, like we may, we may have really liked them and been impressed with them and enjoy talking to them. But we often come away saying like, I just, you know, I can't stand up to that, like that, that person's brain, like, there's no way that they like me as much as I like them.
Those perceptions end up being an accurate too, like psychologists have judged both sides of these conversations and both of them think that the other one didn't like them as much as they did.
Kristel:
Oh funny.
Joe:
Yeah. It's interesting cause it's it, it has to do with that anxiety where people think that they're not doing well on these conversations because they feel maybe a little nervous and they think their nerves are visible to the other person.
Well, and they're definitely not because both of you, you know, when you think about having like a really impromptu conversation, it takes a lot of brain power to have that conversation because you don't have a frame of reference. You don't know who this person is. You've never talked to them before, you don't, you haven't worked up like a shorthand like you do with people that you know.
So you're trying really hard. Like you're you want to come across well, you want to listen to them. You want to say something that's interesting. Like you're operating on a lot of them. And so it's difficult. It's cognitively demanding and that's been measured too. It's harder to have a conversation with a stranger than it is to have it with like a spouse.
But we believe that that struggle is visible and it's not visible because the other person is like hanging on by their fingernails like you are, you know, they're just happy that that's going well. So, you know, that's the good news of it is that, you know, this, these surveys, these studies have been done in a lot of countries around the world.
Featuring a lot of different types of people, introverts, extroverts, people of different races, people of different creeds, people who come from different types of places. Um, and again, and again, and again, and again, once they get past the initial anxiety of doing it, they find that it comes pretty natural to them, uh, which it should, because again, we're like, you know, we're, we're hyper social.
We are what one evolutionary psychologist called the, the ultra cooperative ape where like one of the few animals in nature that cooperates with strangers that communicates with strangers.
You know, like it's pretty rare. You talk about chimpanzees, like chimpanzees do not talk to strangers, do not communicate, do not cooperate with strangers as you know, they're highly xenophobic and aggressive.
So you know, the fact that it is easier than we expect is it makes sense because this is like the basis of civilization civilization happened because we developed ways to cooperate with strangers. We develop ways to get past that anxiety, to sort of reconcile the anxiety we feel about strangers with like the benefits of strangers, the benefits of connecting with people you don't know. The benefits of working with people you don't know.
But you mentioned, you know, getting this conversation to a meaningful place, which is. It's definitely like, this is like, you know, I kind of did this book in stages. Like what's the easiest way to do it. And what's the hardest way to do the hardest one is having a meaningful conversation with someone who's like a member of a group that your group is at odds with.Right?
So like I attended, uh, a convention that teaches Democrats or Republicans to literally just sit at a table and talk to each other, which is that's a very challenging thing to do at the moment, a little tricky. I likened it to like, I, I did a lot of research on like a chimpanzee facility, um, because I, I met this, um, this primatologist whose job was to introduce strange chimpanzees to each other.
And it was like a harrowing process. Like it takes weeks to put them together, to get them to not kill each other. When you put them together, you have to like very slowly and carefully bring them together. Watching them very closely and watching Democrats and Republicans speak to each other, felt like the Chimp facility, but as good a metaphor as any for American politics right now.
So, but yeah, so degree of difficulty, so, you know, getting like a little chat with like a barista to a place that's meaningful is more challenging because you need a little more time, right?
Kristel:
Like, okay, next client.
Joe:
They're like next, you can just stand there and be like, let me tell you about my childhood.
You need to, you know, you need to be sitting with somebody. So if you're, you know, if you strike up a conversation and you're sitting in a cafe or a bar or on a bus, or anywhere where you have time on a plane, that's always a pretty good place to do it in a park. Then you can develop the conversation.
So it's a little easier to do it, but there are a lot of techniques for doing this. And I actually, I took a class in London, taught by a woman named Georgie Nightingales, who is sort of a genius. She's like a communications guru who specifically taught a class on talking to strangers that just like broke it down to all its constituent parts.
This seemingly simple interaction. It's actually pretty complicated. And if you were heard tips that were great, that I, I tried all this stuff out in the streets, too. And in different countries here all over the U S was on the most basic level, make eye contact and smile.
So be friendly show that you're friendly show that you're not like unhinged, I'm a big part of talking to strangers is like demonstrating as quickly as possible that you're not crazy or dangerous.
But it's totally true. And so what you can do is. Do it in a public place, you know, don't make people feel unsafe. Don't sneak up behind someone, like make sure that it's well lit that there are other people around that. Like, you know, people can feel like this is a public place and it's not weird to be doing it.
You know? You can comment on something that you're both seeing. So say you're both watching like a street performer or something. You can like make a comment about the street performer and then just leave it to them to make a comment back. That actually works really well because that street performer is like a shared experience, right?
It's a commonality between the two of you. And so you might have nothing in common, but you're, you're both watching this person perform and that forms a little bond, city planners call it triangulation. Like what happens when that happens. It makes you a little, it's this little triangle.
That works pretty well. If someone is doing something interesting or, you know, maybe wearing something interesting, a compliment goes a long way. You have to be, I mean, I have to be careful is like a guy, obviously. So it doesn't come across as like lascivious or anything, but just being like, you know, I like your shoes.
Like where'd you you get those shoes? I'm in the, you know, I'm in the market for shoes myself. I like that. Is there anything like that that goes a long way because it shows that you appreciate something that they put thought into. That works. Jillian Sandstrom, who's a psychology and a psychologist.
And at the university of Essex does that a lot. She'll just notice something about someone and just be like, just comment on it and they'll be like, oh wow. Like they feel sort of seen, they feel appreciated, you know, they put thought into whatever that was and you know, no one cares generally. So someone like popped up, who'd noticed it, liked it. And they were like, oh cool.
And then, you know, because we're wired in a certain way, like the tendency is to reciprocate. So if someone says like, oh, I like you or whatever, then you'd be like, oh, cool. Yeah. I like your bag. And then now you're off to the races. Now you're having a conversation. You feel that each of you is like fully human and like not crazy.
And then you can talk, but the, you know, you mentioned having like avoiding, just having like a, Hey, how you doing conversation? Which never go anywhere. This is actually really interesting. So, when you're in a place, particularly in a city where there are a lot of people around, we tend to come up with ways. One sociologist called regulating inputs, which is like ways to keep from engaging with stuff.
Cause you're just bombarded with stimulation. Yeah. You're downtown. There's so much stuff happening it's too much for you to process. So you find ways to like regulate your inputs for the amount of stimulus that you're taking in. And one manifestation of that is the way we talk to like a person at a cash register.
Which is just saying like, Hey, how you doing today? And they're like, oh, I'm great. How are you? Good. And then that's it. Right? So that's a way of like addressing each other without putting any energy or any effort into that exchange whatsoever. It's a completely mindless, automatic response. That's known as a script.
So we follow lots of scripts that just save time and save like energy because we're so bombarded all the time. So Georgie Nightingales, who's the woman who taught this class. Teaches an approach that she calls breaking the script. So it involves being mindful of all the times you do that, which is like a lot, I mean, you'll do it a dozen times a day where you have these meeting lists little exchanges and figuring out a way to get it off of the script because you are in each other's presence, you're looking at each other, engaging in some kind of transaction.
So there's some kind of bond there happening. And the way she does it is that someone will start out on a script by saying like, Hey, how you doing? And instead of saying, good, how are you Georgie answers specifically. So her answer would be like, I'd say I'm like an eight out of 10.
And then she'll say, how are you? And again, due to the nature of the way people communicate with each other, they'll follow that model.
So she is like, she is like set the terms for the conversation and established it as a different sort of conversation then they're going to have. And because she did like a numerical value, the response will be in a numerical value.
And I did this a lot. It works. It's, it's like a magic trick. It's amazing. It stops, everything slows down. Right. And all of a sudden you recognize that you're in the presence of another human being, because I do think we tend to dehumanize service people, service workers.
So they answer as they answered with a number and Georgie you'll just be like, well, what will it take you to get to like a nine.
And then the way they answer, we'll give like a little indication of who they are. Right. You'll get a little taste. They might say, I hope this job interview goes well later. I hope like my mother is doing well or something like that. And then you can just listen and just pay attention. And when you get to that point where like something is being volunteered and it's something personal, it's something unique to that person.
Your job is to listen and to ask open-ended questions. So if they say like, yeah, my mother has been a little under the weather. I hope she's well, you can't just be like, yeah, my mother's kind of sick too, because then the thing's just dead. Like you've already cut them off. You've made it about you.
They're going to feel that there's, this was like a bait and switch and they're going to check out. If you ask open-ended questions, which are just, you know, journalism questions, like who, when, why, like, how are you doing with this, that sort of thing. You make it about them and you make it open-ended and you just let them answer the question.
Then you'll hear a little bit more and you'll get a better sense of that person. And then in time, like, you know, and this is, if you have time to do it again, you can't do this in like a crowded line at a supermarket. Cause people will kill you. But you just let it go. And you just like you, you relinquish control of the interaction, which is intimidating for people because I think at this point,due to digital communication.
We're so used to having total control over our interactions, like a text conversation. I can answer that text whenever I want, and I can rewrite it four times, but when I'm in like a live fire situation, I can't. And when I'm in a situation where I'm talking to someone I've never met before, resisting the temptation to like steer it towards me or steering it towards my interests.
That's the hardest thing. That was the hardest thing for me to get used to, to keep the microphone in front of them and just let them talk for a little bit and help them articulate what they're trying to get at, you know, cause again, people don't ask you a lot about this stuff. Well, you know, like your family might not ask you about this stuff.
So your friends might not ask you. We just kind of like no one really sits down and takes like a really active interest in you. It's very rare, right? That no one, but, but it's definitely rare, especially when people are super busy. So over time they're feeling comfortable, they're feeling sort of appreciated.
They feel that you're really interested in them because you are, you can't fake it. You have to actually be. Or they'll sniff it out. Um, and then they'll become interested in you. Who is this person? Right? Who's was just, just seems like, kind of nice and inquisitive and you know, they're asking me questions and you know, and then maybe they'll ask you about yourself and then you'll start doing it.
And it's just a magic of like human interaction. You'll eventually kind of circle in on something that you haven't. Um, it's just how we, this is how we form social bonds. We're very, very good at ferreting out. Um, these sorts of commonalities with other people, as long as we're comfortable, if we're not comfortable that it's a whole other kettle of fish, but right. But yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing.
Kristel:
That was incredible. So that was a ton of information and a lot of really good information and tidbits. And I, my favorite part of what you said, which I'm going to try it was saying, you know, maybe you have an eight out of 10. I love that because it's unexpected and it's playful and it gets you off autopilot.
It's just like those repetitive things you're not even thinking about. And another thing that came to my mind was just the practice of like active listening. And so often when you're, you know, we're talking with somebody, I think a lot of people end up thinking, well, what am I going to say next? Or what am I going to say?
Or, and you're focused more on that instead of what that person is actually saying. And that's a practice of really developing that skill of being engaged and not worrying about what's gonna. Yeah, what you're going to say or how you're going to respond, just actively listening in the conversation and trusting that you're going to say whatever comes out of your mouth and it's going to be the right thing to say for the situation.
Joe:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's a, it's a bit of a high wire act, but I'll let me share this with you. This is interesting. And I think your listeners might be into this too. Um, have you ever heard of an organization called urban confessional?
Kristel:
No.
Joe:
Okay. So urban confessional is the brainchild of this guy named Ben Mathis in Los Angeles.
And Ben is like an actor and an acting coach, and he hit a real low point in his life. And one day he just felt that he like, he had come unconnected from the world, like he needed some sort of like communion with somebody. And so he ended up just talking to a homeless person and he ended up having like this incredible conversation about this person's life.
And he came away feeling like, feeling good, feeling like that, that guy felt he might've felt better. He might've felt less anonymous or less invisible. And Ben felt good too. So Ben starts this organization called Urban confessional. And what do you do when you participate in urban confessional is that you do free listening, which is very similar to active listening.
It's the same idea, but the difference is you literally make like a, like a cardboard sign. Like a cheap, ragged looking cardboard sign and you write free listing on it and you stand on a street corner. And so they do it in pairs. Um, and there are a lot of reasons why he does what he does. And a lot of it's very smart, but so two people stand up there with the sign and you just stand there and you wait.
And it's the greatest training. I mean, I was thinking it should be training for journalists for sure, but it's really good training for anyone who needs to learn how to listen. It needs to learn how to be vulnerable, not in the sense that they're like offering things about themselves, but vulnerable in the sense that you're just standing there and you're completely out of control of the situation.
So I did it with Ben, I went out to LA. And I spent like a morning on a street corner in east LA with him holding the sign and felt super weird about it and found it incredibly intimidating. And like I'm a control freak, and I have a really keen sense of embarrassment. Like I was raised like Irish Catholic in Boston.
So we're like, we're very easily embarrassed people. Yeah. Um, so it was horrifying to me at first and, um, but then sure enough, like people come over and they're kind of like, what is this. And you explain it, Ben would just be like, we're just here to listen. We feel that people would benefit from being listened to.
So we're offering this as like a service, like freezers. It's not a social media play. It's, you're not selling anything. You're only there for this. You're like a repository. You're like a sounding board for people. And once you got past the, originally the initial, like wariness and suspicion, people just pour their hearts out.
It was amazing. And you just, you force yourself to listen and the rules of doing it are, don't judge, don't correct them. Don't get into fights with them. Don't offer advice. Don't make it about you. Uh, he has a rule that I actually, I think is a really valuable rule called the 80 20 rule where, when you're doing free listing, um, top, make sure that the conversation is about them 80% of the time. And you can maybe talk about yourself just enough to like establish some sort of commonality. So if someone says they used to, you know, one guy was like a musician and I was like, well, yeah, I used to be, I was a musician for, as a writer and be like, oh cool. And so then that makes him, he relaxes a little bit.
Right? We're both musicians. Um, that's how little it actually takes sometimes for people to feel like there's some kind of connection there. But the 80 20 rule was super useful. And I use it now when I talk to people, at least for the early stages of the conversation. You can't just be grilling them for information and not give something back because then they feel that they're being interrogated, but it's like a really good way to build up that discipline to learn how to listen well.
Also it will just ensure that the conversation goes places that you did not expect to go. And that's like, that's Pater. When you do this, when you just don't know where this is, where this is going to go, you don't know what they're going to say. You don't know who they are. And, um, it's often like incredibly surprising, hilarious, and sometimes really poignant and sometimes really challenging.
And then, you know, sometimes even shatter, it's amazing.
Kristel:
That's fascinating and also very intimidating, I think, to like put yourself in that situation. And I’m thinking about myself, like I used to always feel like I would need to, I would want to try and help people fix things that they were telling me their problems and deaths.
I think my healthcare background is like, you know, obviously patients would come trying to have you at me, help them fix something. But I've gotten to the point now where I realize a lot of it just comes down to being able to listen. Like it's not about fixing other people's stuff or problems. It's just being there to be supportive by being kind of holding that space for that active listening.
But that has taken some practice to not feel like and interject with like my opinion or, you know, I think you should do this. It's just about like being there, you know, and with the power of connections. I was looking at some research recently, how people who feel lonely that loneliness in general can be more detrimental to your health than obesity and smoking.
And I was like, wow, that is mind blowing. So I think these. Practices are so incredibly valuable. And, um, we're gonna, we're kind of coming a little bit close to the end here. So I would love for you to give like a few tangible action steps that the listener can do if they want to start to try and get more comfortable in talking to people and building connection and having that on those social interactions, like what would be some good first steps for them?
Joe:
Um, to back up very briefly. The loneliness part is actually a really important thing. Because you know, like a former surgeon general of the United States refer to this as an epidemic, like it's such a widespread problem.
It's a major public health issue. It's a major mental health issue. And there are a lot of organizations that are popping up that are addressing it by trying to get people to talk to strangers. And there's a lot of research that shows that people do feel less lonely, more trusting, more connected,happier that all these are effects of having conversations with strangers, whether they're long or whether they're short.
It's a way to feel connected because loneliness is disconnection, right. Um, first. You know, we can, we can start with something easy, which is, uh, you know, Jillian sands from who I mentioned before, who's arguably the leading psychologist on this stuff ran an experiment where she had a bunch of people talking to strangers.
And then, you know, the control group that was not talking to strangers, but part of them, part of that group was supposed to just notice people. So their job was to sit there and notice the, not talk to people, but notice people and Gillian found that even those people who are just sitting there and just noticing people felt happier, more connected.
You know, more optimistic just by like, you know, when you look at someone you're, you're awakened to their humanity. Right? Cause usually if you, especially, if you live in a city, people are just like objects and impediments, right? Like they're obstacles to get around on the way to your meeting or the subway, as horrible as that sounds to say, but just looking at them makes them feel, it makes you feel better.
It makes you happier. Not to the same extent that talking to them does, but like start there. So take your butts out, take your brother. Put the phone away and just watch people and think about them and look at them, and just become aware of them. That's the place to start.
After that, you can start making eye contact.You can smile. You can say good morning if people make eye contact back.
I did all that. It was like a horrifying prospect at first, but the people who noticed were amazingly receptive, uh, because again, it's New York, like people don't. I find it a fairly friendly time, but like, people don't do stuff like that.
But people were like, they would be taken aback. They'd be like, oh, good morning. And then I came to know some of those people, because they were like in my morning rounds, my name. And now I see someone I know every day and I feel more connected and that's better. and then you can just keep escalating from there.
So, you know, talking to someone when you're buying groceries, talking to someone, talking to the waiter or waitress at the restaurant, you're eating out. If you're still eating at restaurants again, um, these little, these are just little places where you're interacting with people where ordinarily, you just don't pay attention to them.
You might, you'll be, might be nice. You're not doing it cause you're a bad person. You're just doing it because this is just sort of the norm, you know, resolve to learn something about the way. When you go to dinner, like what motivates this person? Like what would they like to do? You know, the one, one great tip was never say, what do you do?
Only say, what do you, what would you like to do more? Oh, which is a really good one. Cause then that cuts through who they are. It's not just like one of the waiter, obviously I'm standing here bringing your food. What would you like to do more of then that gets into their passions that gets into who they are.
It gets into their ambitions, their self perception, all that. Stuff's great. It works super well. It actually works remarkably well. And then you can just keep going. I mean, there are other, you know, you can, I'm sure people in all the pretty much all over the country can find organizations that, that host like, you know, it could be philosophical conversations or political conversations between strangers, you know, in New York conversations in New York is a really valuable resource for just like getting stuck at a table with people you don't know, and having like an intense conversation.
Urban confessional is great. Sidewalk talk is an amazing organization where people just set up chairs in the street and let people come and talk to them about whatever. Worried about or whatever their issues are. Um, a lot of these organizations are in the, in the book, but it's a good way to like, just find your feet to do it and like a safe environment to feel more competent, to feel more confident about it.
And then you can just, you know, after a while you get really good at it and you can strike up a conversation with anyone at any time. And that's when it gets really fun, but it definitely takes work. And you have to like build up those social muscles, especially after COVID, but, you know, even before COVID I think we were withdrawing a bit.
So I think we could all stand to get a little better at this stuff.
Kristel:
Right. I love all of that. And I just not try not to take yourself too seriously, you know, and I had a cognitive scientists on my show. CNN has a great Ted talk, like how, why people choke under pressure and how to fix it. And she has done some research and she was talking about. There was a study where, um, someone, I think we had to wear a certain kind of shirt that was made them uncomfortable and they felt like everyone in the class was going to notice. And it, the results were like, Way, way, way, way lower than what the person was expecting. Basically saying like those things you're worried about.
Did I say that thing that people think that sounded weird or this weird people, people, most people don't notice they're too worried about what they're doing and worried about themselves. So I think just take the pressure off yourself, lighten up, laugh it off, look at it as a learning process and have fun with it because all of these exercises I think are really interesting and fun.
And I'm going to try that on a scale of one to 10 next time. Am I get that question? How are you today? It's great. Fantastic. So it's like a contrary, but yeah, no, everything you said is right. Absolutely.
Kristel:
So cool. Okay. So I'm going to have links in the episode details so people can learn more about you and your book and all of that stuff.
And we're going to jump into a wellness lightning round, and I'm going to actually add a question that I haven't done, um, after talking with you. But before we do that, anything else that you want to share about how people can find you, anything else that you're currently working on.
Joe:
No, no, I think this is, this is the main focus.
Now I have some other projects, but they're not, they won't be out until next year.
Kristel:
Okay. Perfect. All right. Are you ready for the wellness lightning round? I didn't know happened. You feel the pressure?
Okay. So my first question is a new one and it is what would you like to be doing more of.
Joe:
Sleeping. Oh, good one. Okay. Without question. That's an easy one.
Kristel:
Yeah. All right. Second one. What is a self care routine or thing that you do personally? That is a non-negotiable for you?
Joe:
Walks taking walks.
Kristel:
And have you read a book recently that you would recommend?
Joe:
Yes. Um, I'm reading a book called the Peregrine. Which is about Peregrine Falcons because my daughter is very interested in birds. So now I have to learn about birds. I can't remember who wrote it though.
I just started reading it this morning, but it's an amazing, it's an amazing book. It's an amazing bird. It's just like the, it's the fastest bird in the world and arguably like the best hunter in the world, in the animal kingdom. Yeah. They're amazing. So yeah, I recommend.
Kristel:
You should watch that Wildcraft episode, if you haven't with her, my kids loved Wild Kratts.
They have one with that, that Peregrine or however you say it Falcon and they loved it. Um, okay.
Last question, knowing what you know now, what advice would you give to yourself from 10 years ago?
Joe:
Yeah. It’s a big question.
Honestly, the big epiphany has been, bet more on yourself than on an organization. Cause I think for a long time I was ambitious, but in the sense that I wanted to work for like top like big-time organizations, newspapers, magazines, and I ended up doing that. And I did it. 20 years. And I realized now that I should have just been in business for myself the entire time, and I don't like having a boss.
That's why I avoid bosses. That would have been my advice to my ears.
Kristel:
Awesome. Well, this has been so much fun. I have absolutely loved our conversation. I've learned a ton, so thank you so much for spending some time with me today.
Joe:
Yeah. Thank you. That was a total blast. I appreciate it.
Kristel:
Awesome.